Just an observation

[Thatdirtykid]

Good call. I'm not planning to flip the whole bag over for no reason, but I would like to try out the Discraft equivalents and see if I can mix it up a bit.

Currently, this is my bag and what I think might be the equivalent, from what I've thrown in the past and from reading descriptions. If you think there's a better equal, let me know.

2 Wraiths (DX, Star) - - - - - - - - - - - - ESP Surge, maybe a D Crush or X Avenger?
Tee-Rex (Star) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Z Avenger
Orc (Champ for overhands) - - - - - - Z Flick
2 Firebirds (Champ, Star) - - - - - - - -X or Z Predator
Sidewinder (Star for rolling) - - - - - - Beat EliteX XL
4 Teebird-Ls (2 Star, 2 CFR) - - - - - XLs, Trackers
Roc (champ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Z Wasp
Z Buzzz
Panther (Champ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - -Comet? Glide?
2 Aviars (Star, 10x KC Pro) - - - - - - - Magnet for putting, X Challenger for driving?

the surge would be most like the wraiths, although I love the control and versitility of X avengers,
the Tee Rex is probably alot longer than a Z avenger, and less overstable. The Z avengers once broken in may work for a teerex spot, but they will take a long time to break in (my broken in one is much longer than my new one about 50' longer)
Try an express for your roller if you like out of the box rollers, but x aveners and XLs both make good rollers (cant say about trackers)
glide wont replace a panther, it has too much glide, aka less predicatable, the comet may be just your liking, especially if you can find a Z comet

[bigs348]

I figured the Avenger wasn't as long as the Tee-Rex, but I also figured it's probably the closest thing that will still be good in a headwind. I only really use the Tee-Rex over my Wraith when I need big distance that I can't have turn over (OB or whatever).

I have some XLs and I love those, but I like what I'm hearing about a Tracker being like a longer Buzzz. That might be just the control driver I need. I have a Predator I got at a tourney a while back -- I just tried it out yesterday and I definitely like it more than my Firebirds, not quite as flat so it gets better glide.

I'm thinking of getting three or four new discs in the next few weeks and trying some stuff out -- I'm thinking either an X or Z Avenger, an X or Z Tracker, and maybe a Challenger... Just to get a feel for how I like the Discraft stuff.

[garublador]

I have some XLs and I love those, but I like what I'm hearing about a Tracker being like a longer Buzzz. That might be just the control driver I need.

I don't know if it's a concern or not, but I find that the X Tracker is a pretty long disc. I get Avenger type distances out of it, so I'd call it a long range driver rather than a fairway driver. I've never thrown a Buzzz, but the flight does sort of remind me of a longer midrange disc and I do find it very controlable. I've seen Blake comare it to a Pro Starfire and I think it's closer to an Orion LS but many people think those two discs are very similar, too.

As for Avengers, I find that when the X breaks in, it becomes fairly easy to flip up from a hyzer, but had a pretty hard fade, so I know it's coming back. The Z is much harder to flip up to flat (I can't do it without a headwind) and fades hard, too. There's quite a difference between the two. Both do well into a headwind, IMO depending on how you like to play the wind. Perhaps that will help with your decision as to which to buy.

[bigs348]

Thanks for the info -- I'll definitely take it into account. Considering how long my Buzzz goes though, a shorter fairway driver is hardly needed. A longer, very controllable disc will be perfect to fill that distance gap. In any case, a control fairway driver that can go a good distance without much height is like my holy grail.

I would definitely like to try out both X and Z Avengers. From what I hear, they're very different discs and I think they will both have their uses. The X sounds perfect for me because I love to throw with hyzer flip. I think the Z would probably be strictly a headwind driver, but with my Predator I don't know if it's necessary. Depends on how much longer it is I guess.

Can anyone compare a Challenger and a Magnet to other putters? I've heard a Challenger is more like a Wizard or a KC Pro Aviar, but does anyone know how well it drives?

[Thatdirtykid]

challenger drives much like a avair x (kc pro avair), if you get a crystal challenger to go with a d challenger they complement eachother nicely, the crystal challenger flips up but wont turn much like an E wizard.

I really like the Z avenger into the wind and use a broken in Z avenger where I need good distance on a hyzer, or just a bit more fade. I use them where alot may use a predator (especially new, they fly somewhere between a crush and a predator) The only times I use preds anymore is for knife hyzers, and super windy days. I think you will like it.

Howver something we didnt mention yet, the bottom lip on Z avengers, especially the older runs can be alittle sharp. It takes alittle getting used to or alittle breaking in, either way after a couple weeks of use, its not bad at all, avengers are accually the most comfortable fast driver in my hands.

[Frank Delicious]

For me I find challengers hold a better line than an Aviar X and I do have to agree that a cryztal challenger is sweet. Just got one and that bad boy is definitely becoming my new driving putter. The Aviar X would just turn over right a little and not come back and that was a major problem sometimes.

I also agree that Z avengers are great for into the wind drives. I don't have a ton of power (325-350 drive) and the avenger holds a good line for my strength.

As for a good control driver that doesn't require much height I love the leopard. I have thrown CEs, SEs, Pro lines and champs. They all get good carry for very little height. They are my Go-To control driver for tight tunnel shots. The Z-Glide also works pretty well but it can get a bit squirrley so you have to learn how to throw it before it becomes very effective.

[Bradley Walker]

As for a good control driver that doesn't require much height I love the leopard. I have thrown CEs, SEs, Pro lines and champs. They all get good carry for very little height. They are my Go-To control driver for tight tunnel shots.

I think a lot of people are missing the boat by not having a leopard or cheetah.

The leopard is just easy to throw, and has a great low speed glide. My wife is a tiny thing, and she is just getting to throwing 120' to 150'. She throws her 168g Leopard DX further than her 150 Sidewinder or Valk. The flight is just more solid.

The Cheetah is a darn good disc.

I was playing with an experienced player this weekend, and he commented on my throwing "outdated technology" when I reached for my Cheetah for a long turnover downwind throw. I reached the basket (which required a long turnover 400') and everyone else faded out with their fast overstable discs.

To me the Cheetah is very similar to the old Cylcone in "cyclone plastic" (I took my 1995 Cyclone to the store and found the disc that most resembled it--the Gazelle is similar also). Although I tuned mine for anheysers and downwind driving, I have no doubt a CE Cheetah would be plenty overstable to do most anything except heavy headwind work. BTW, I have several tests where the Cheetah will outfly my Surge (and Wraith for that matter) downwind. The stabilizer bar type discs like the Cyclone and Cheetah are much "easier" to throw far and dead straight, especially downwind, than the newer "wing" type discs. The fade at the end is non-existant. For me anyway...

Flat top a Cheetah, and you might have something there...

I think the disc manufacturers abandoned the "bead" type discs, which is a mistake IMHO...

[jiwaburst]

The Cheetah is a darn good disc.

Yeah it is. I have a 166, works great. Esp downwind or if I need to throw a high turnover. It has an unthreatened spot in my bag.

[Blake_T]

the gazelle is a bit closer to an old cyclone than a cheetah is but the gazelle is also a bit straighter. i believe the abandoning of these types of drivers is responsible for why so few players can throw high and nose down.

[jase]

I didn't really read all 4 pages, but I'd just like to say that I am all Innova except for a disc I found, and don't plan on changing anytime soon.

[Pagan]

I too want to chime in on a few discs:

Challenger: rocks and holds lines just like the Banger GT. Want a Cryztal!
Tracker: really is like a longer Buzz. It's easier to throw and controllable.
Surge: Love for long wide open holes, turn it over a bit.

[Blake_T]

I didn't really read all 4 pages, but I'd just like to say that I am all Innova except for a disc I found, and don't plan on changing anytime soon.

unless you have direct realistic aspiration for being sponsored by them, that is a very limiting mentality.

[Weebl]

bigs, if you ever replace the champion panther, i know someone who would like to take it off your hands...

[TexasOutlaw]

Even I carry Innova discs, and I've had unpleasant run ins with Innova people.