Shoulder angle, plant foot, and pull though.

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Shoulder angle, plant foot, and pull though.

Postby Timko » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:48 am

from Blake:

a lot of this is the 3 stages of shoulder rotation.

180 to 90. disc pulls across chest. 90 to open.


As I'm at the point of max reach back , my plant foot has yet to land, and my shoulders are approximately at 180 degrees (mine are a little less, but that's not really the point). It seems that as my plant foot begins to hit the ground, my shoulders have to turn to approximately 90 degrees before I begin my pull though.

Is this correct, or should my shoulders still be near the 180 mark when my plant foot hits?
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Postby tumpsi » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:09 am

I just came home from the first max d training session of this spring.
Broke my D record, it's now 415'. I threw ~100 drives, and only two of them
we're somewhere near OK.
I'm pretty sure I can break 450' this summer.

I have messed up my form somehow, and it's related to Furthurs request.
Sorry for the thread hijack. So here's my problem:

I can't pull through properly, my left foot doesn't go around my spine axis
like it should. It goes to the right side, back of my right foot, and it feels pretty
uncomfortable in my lower back. Haven't had issues like that before.
Don't know why it happens, but I can't seem to stop myself doing that.
The stance i end up to feels pretty awkward and looks funny.

I've changed my plant foot angle from 90 to 65-70 degrees, and I think
it's helping me a lot. (I guess this is called opening the hips?) I can feel
the hit on a good throw, but it needs lots more practice.


HALP GUISE!


edit: all my throws we're a bit too low, which is a new problem too.
edit2: the disc was 175g star teerex
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Re: Shoulder angle, plant foot, and pull though.

Postby JR » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:29 am

Furthur wrote:from Blake:

a lot of this is the 3 stages of shoulder rotation.

180 to 90. disc pulls across chest. 90 to open.


As I'm at the point of max reach back , my plant foot has yet to land, and my shoulders are approximately at 180 degrees (mine are a little less, but that's not really the point). It seems that as my plant foot begins to hit the ground, my shoulders have to turn to approximately 90 degrees before I begin my pull though.

Is this correct, or should my shoulders still be near the 180 mark when my plant foot hits?


For late power focus help I recommend having the shoulders rotated as far away from the target as possible when the right leg plants. I translated key parts of a thesis about long throws in the thread I read a nice thesis about long throws or something like that. It didn't cover leg work but the author found a statistically significant correlation between the amount of shoulder turn and distance of the throw. The more people turned away from the target with their shoulders the farther the throws went.
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Postby JR » Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:41 am

tumpsi wrote:I just came home from the first max d training session of this spring.
Broke my D record, it's now 415'. I threw ~100 drives, and only two of them
we're somewhere near OK.
I'm pretty sure I can break 450' this summer.

I have messed up my form somehow, and it's related to Furthurs request.
Sorry for the thread hijack. So here's my problem:

I can't pull through properly, my left foot doesn't go around my spine axis
like it should. It goes to the right side, back of my right foot, and it feels pretty
uncomfortable in my lower back. Haven't had issues like that before.
Don't know why it happens, but I can't seem to stop myself doing that.
The stance i end up to feels pretty awkward and looks funny.

I've changed my plant foot angle from 90 to 65-70 degrees, and I think
it's helping me a lot. (I guess this is called opening the hips?) I can feel
the hit on a good throw, but it needs lots more practice.


HALP GUISE!


edit: all my throws we're a bit too low, which is a new problem too.
edit2: the disc was 175g star teerex


Congrats on the new record.

Where the left leg lands varies with different stepping styles. Shuffle steps vs x steps. Great results can be achieved with both. It may not be the most important thing as long as it works with other parts of the throw so that you do clear/open your hips by turning chest facing the target directly as the disc leaves the hand. If I remember correctly a picture of the position of the x steps in www.area46.se or something like that(google area46 for exact URL) had the left leg in the x step close to where you're describing your current step to be. Generally the farther forward your left leg is in the x step the farther back you lean and the more force is required to push you upright and weight forward and the longer it takes for the weight shift to happen. That buys you time to think about your form and concentrate on form, timing power generation or combinations of those. Usually slowing down the steps allows for more control of where the legs land. Practicing form not throwing for D or accuracy should help.
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Postby Takeichi » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:26 am

I think JR hit this one on the nose with your shoulder still being extended to the 180 degree point.

I had the same issue. It is a well thing to really learn this, you get a lot more accurate and more distance. well worth the few bad rounds of adjusting.
disc in topic above goes realy really far.
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Postby Blake_T » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:48 am

Further:

it's impossible to stay 180 degrees away when the foot hits the ground unless the right foot is also facing backwards, which is bad.

you shouldn't be actively coming forward when it hits the ground but if there is incidental shoulder opening (caused by hip angles). a way to combat this is to experiment starting your pull later. if you watch, there are some pros that don't hit max reach back until their pivot foot has almost touched down.
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Postby Blake_T » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:49 am

I can't pull through properly, my left foot doesn't go around my spine axis
like it should.


the spine is not the correct axis.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:59 am

I think Blake is 100% right (shock) in that you need to stop talking about thinking about your throw from the reach back forward. You need to learn to think in terms of your hit position BACKWARD.

I am constantly working on my "chop position" (this is actually not a position but an area of dynamic action where the arm is going from fully cocked to fully extended). From working backward, I have found several different methods for achieving this position and making this linkage. I have a different goal in mind, which is no longer to throw farther, but to throw more in balance and take the strain of my back, which is a constant nuisance.
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Postby tumpsi » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:05 pm

JR wrote:Congrats on the new record.

Thanks.

Where the left leg lands varies with different stepping styles. Shuffle steps vs x steps. Great results can be achieved with both. It may not be the most important thing as long as it works with other parts of the throw so that you do clear/open your hips by turning chest facing the target directly as the disc leaves the hand.

I've used the x-step for years, and I'm not willing to change it.
I have some pain in my lower back, and I'm afraid it's not going to be better
tomorrow.

If I remember correctly a picture of the position of the x steps in www.area46.se or something like that(google area46 for exact URL) had the left leg in the x step close to where you're describing your current step to be.

I googled it, and found the site. The gallery contains dozens of pictures,
and I'm too lazy to browse them all. :)

Generally the farther forward your left leg is in the x step the farther back you lean and the more force is required to push you upright and weight forward and the longer it takes for the weight shift to happen. That buys you time to think about your form and concentrate on form, timing power generation or combinations of those. Usually slowing down the steps allows for more control of where the legs land. Practicing form not throwing for D or accuracy should help.

Yeah, this new form of mine only appears when I throw near max power,
on slower motion my steps are normal. Of course I do practice form also,
but I think this might be a common problem, so I'm leaning on Blake and his
magical advices.
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Postby tumpsi » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:19 pm

Blake_T wrote:
I can't pull through properly, my left foot doesn't go around my spine axis
like it should.


the spine is not the correct axis.

I know, but that's the easiest way to describe it, I'm too tired to think about correct terminology atm :)
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Postby tumpsi » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:21 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:I think Blake is 100% right (shock) in that you need to stop talking about thinking about your throw from the reach back forward. You need to learn to think in terms of your hit position BACKWARD.

I am constantly working on my "chop position" (this is actually not a position but an area of dynamic action where the arm is going from fully cocked to fully extended). From working backward, I have found several different methods for achieving this position and making this linkage. I have a different goal in mind, which is no longer to throw farther, but to throw more in balance and take the strain of my back, which is a constant nuisance.

I plan to throw far accurately, and in balance. I'm not sure what you guys mean
with that backwards thing.
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Postby garublador » Thu Apr 10, 2008 12:34 pm

tumpsi wrote:I plan to throw far accurately, and in balance. I'm not sure what you guys mean
with that backwards thing.
It's outlined in this thread:

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/vi ... sc&start=0

It involves completely revamping your throw from the hit backwards. I just started and I've already found problems that I never would have fixed otherwise.
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Postby black udder » Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:54 pm

I recall something like as you hips open, kick your left leg up, and the momentum will move it over as you pivot. It sounds like you're not opening/clearing your hips with your throw, so your hips aren't facing the hole like they should. This brings your leg around. If you don't, then you could be pushing all that momentum against your hips instead of transferring it to the disc and into your finish/follow through.

I'm with you on adding controlled distance. I believe that the further you can throw max D, the better your form has to be and thus, the easier it is to throw controlled shorter distances.
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Postby Timko » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:17 pm

black udder wrote:I'm with you on adding controlled distance. I believe that the further you can throw max D, the better your form has to be and thus, the easier it is to throw controlled shorter distances.


All I want is 380' controlled on flat ground and I'd be content to improve my better than average putting stroke. I feel that my d on any line right now is in the 330' range. Mine is a combination of some pivot / hip clearing issues and some nose up issues, because my Roc distance is way too close to my driver distance.
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Postby Aaron_D » Thu Apr 10, 2008 2:32 pm

peaking at 330' + roc-going-as-far-as-driver syndrome are all definitely warning signs that you are having more major nose angle issues than you probably realize. I went through this and what helped me was really trying to focus on keeping my wrist down thru the hit and getting my weight even more forward. You should get a fairly nose angle sensitive disc like a valk, beast, orc, SL, inferno, etc...but not a disc that is too fast for you to handle (wraith, teerex, surge etc.) with a disc like this you will really see the difference between nose up and nose down throws. The good news is that since you are putting rocs out so far (330 with a roc is great) you will probably hit 360+ish with a valk with minimal change in technique other than getting more weight forward and keeping your wrist down.
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