Seth Project and the Crippled Old Man (wrist extension)

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Seth Project and the Crippled Old Man (wrist extension)

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:55 pm

So, I just got done throwing with Geoseth in the field.

Just to give a little background, I just had the first round of steroid shots in my back last Friday (with two more left tomorrow and next Friday). I have a bulged disc in my second lumbar vertebrate that is pinching a nerve down into my right butt cheek down to my leg. I have been forced to reduce my body effort significantly and focus on perfect wrist technique to keep from the pinched nerve taking me to my knees. Basically, throwing with a ton of wrist extension, even to the point of feeling ridiculous (even though it is not).

Seth had kind of hit a wall and I talked him into making drastic changes in his throwing technique. We started last week with a a program of radical wrist extension (compared to what we had both been doing before).

Anyway, I will reserve comment until I more sure of the findings, but I have to say that we saw some significant gains today from both us.

Me (throwing all wrist focus)
Rocs 350 on a 20 foot line drive consistently.
Star TB and Eagle 375 to 390
Wraith 450

Seth
Rocs 340 (I have never seen Seth throw mids like this)
Star TB 360
Wraith and Max nearly 400

I would say that Seth has picked up maybe 50 feet since we started two weeks ago. Lots of nose down, hit focus, finish power, and reduction of wobble.

Sadly, I have not gained from my healthy distances, but considering the state of my back I would say I have gained something out of this. I am actually decelerating as fast as possible after the hit to keep my follow throw short to keep from torquing my back.

These are stepped off and averaged distances on flat ground into a slight right to left headwind. Not Internet distances or guesses. These are golf throws not distance lines.

Some people will say "eh, so what", but I have to say I am very pleased with the results. I can say that having a hurt back has forced my to explore the more esoteric hit theories promoted by Blake. All I can say is that I wish I had learned this first, before I ever learned to throw. I probably would have never strained my back in the first place.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Postby masterbeato » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm

this is very pleasing to the ear. People may say "oh yeah well so what theat's not that great" I know the difference between earning some and gaining some. You guys are earning your technique. I love to hear any kind of improvement.

All I have to say is great job guys, and keep that back of yours from getting completely screwed up there brad. I heard you had a good arm. Don't let a set back hold you back too much. I'm glad to hear your still doing well with your technique.
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Postby JR » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:21 pm

Are you using hyper spin technique? Extending the wrist 20 degrees right of the hand shaking position then stopping the wrist abruptly?

I tried this on Sunday first with jump putts then later during playing after watching my friend training two dozen sidearm throws and thinking about what he does wrong not accepting advice so it took a long time and I cooled down physically. Then the hardest drive effort from muscles uphill ever and it may have become a crooked arm throw unintentionally along with the hyper spin wrist extension. I think my plant step got stuck a bit in the uneven natural rock tee for a bit of tripping towards the target and maybe a faster turning of the torso and upper body twisting my right leg with chest square to the target and toes of the right leg pointing left of the target.

BAM! My arm hurt quite bad and I've never felt such a tug in my muscles. I felt a shockwave move from my wrist to my elbow and back in the muscles not the bones. The same kind of motion you see a water hose do when you turn on the water. I was also changing my grip and put my Wraith to a hyzer uphill so wouldn't know about the distance and don't know if the shockwave or pain caused me to open my hand early. 230' distance with about 30-35' apex I think.

Has anyone felt a tendon bounce like this? Don't know if I missed stopping the wrist at 20 degrees right of handshaking position or if my wrist extended even more. This is dangerous to do when not warmed up. Not a thing for injured people in cold weather I'm afraid.

Anyone know if hyper spin would be safe to do for extended periods of time in warm conditions or with warm muscles?

I haven't played since and am on anti inflammatories/pain med combined that is designed for my injury. It's getting better each day but not totally away yet. Almost though. Had to be careful not to stress my arm heavily all week.
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Postby JR » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:24 pm

masterbeato wrote:this is very pleasing to the ear. People may say "oh yeah well so what theat's not that great" I know the difference between earning some and gaining some. You guys are earning your technique. I love to hear any kind of improvement.

All I have to say is great job guys, and keep that back of yours from getting completely screwed up there brad. I heard you had a good arm. Don't let a set back hold you back too much. I'm glad to hear your still doing well with your technique.


Second. Any tips on how to achieve more nose down and put more spin on the disc not letting the disc slip out early? :-) I don't feel slippages nor do I see missing left but still do think that the disc leaves with too little spin and speed compared to my arm speed without hyper spin.
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Postby geoloseth » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:32 pm

I'm glad brad finally posted about our training sessions, although I now sound like a sience experiment. Its true that I hit a really big wall in my game. I had been stuck at an average distance drive of about 350 with very few ever going more than 15' further. That's when Brad stepped in and forced me to realize what I was doing wrong and what I can do to fix it.

The first time out Brad showed me the basics of good wrist extension and how it changed both the angle the disc releases on and the physical properties that allow the disc to not be hindered by the throwing motion.

One thing that Brad is EXTREMELY good at is showing and explaining what is going on and what should be going on. Like he told me when I tried to picture his new throwing motion - your throwing the disc with two arcs. The first isnthe arc made by your arm with the pivot at your elbow and the second is an arc with your hand where the pivot is at your wrist. If you do it all properly you will throw the disc with an arc on another arc. This causes the disc, for lack of better words, to explode from the hand at a nose down angle. I'll let Brad explain the whole thing because he can do it better than I can.

After tonight i can honestly say there is merit to what Brad has shown me. If you do it all correctly the disc will ALWAYS come out nose down and with huge aounts of spin.

One last note. I found the throwing notion to be a bit awkward at first. But once I forced myself to keep a loose wrist it all fell into place.
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Postby geoloseth » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:38 pm

I need to correct one thing Brad mentioned. We both paced off his wraith and the were averaging close to 450 with one reaching 465. All this from a guy with an f'ed up back
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Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:13 pm

No, Seth that is a pretty good explanation.

I am going to reserve comment on EXACTLY what we are working on until I am sure what the results will be. I have made the mistake in the past of jumping on my own bandwagon too fast and I was well, wrong.

the key is that there are some EXACT things that can be done. However, the techniques that Blake describes are, very subtle concepts.

I guess I would go out on a limb and say that what we are practicing is truly RELEASING the angles of the wrist using the elbow and momentum. I think most people throw with what I refer to as a "knuckle ball" release. Kind of "ptthhhheeeehhh" all at once. This is really a slip, there is no additional force imparted on the disc. In fact, energy from the arm swing is never transferred into the disc.

Think about this. We are throwing an object.

Think of throwing a fast ball. When you release the fastball the ball literally rolls down the the ends of the fingers and the wrist is driven downward with the last thing touching the ball are the fingertips. This creates incredible torque into the back of the ball. Like cracking a whip.

Think of shooting a free throw. Same thing. Great shooters release the ball by rolling the ball from the palm down the length of the fingers until the last thing the ball see is the finger tips being driven down sharply. This leaves the wrist in what my father calls the "goose head position" (you will see great shooters pose in this position). The ball is not shot from the palm. Shooting from the palm his would result in all of the power coming from the push of the arms like a shotputt. This is also like throwing a knuckle ball which releases from all the fingers at once with no torque applied to the edge of the ball.

Apparently, the same thing can occur when throwing a disc. The problem is that everything is set on its side from the ball examples... so, the disc must pivot to the front fingers in an arcing fashion from the back of the hand. All of this by using the elbow, wrist angle, and the fingers themselves to lever the disc forward in an arc AROUND the base of the wrist.

In that, we have created a second arc. The arm swing around the body is one arc. The pivot around the wrist is a another arc COUPLED to the first arc. Not to mention the fact you get the disc moving to launch position off of the front of the hand.

The nose is down because the wrist is not longer in front of the disc (which causes nose up). The disc is slung out on an arc beyond the hand independent of the arm arc (as seen from the side) and ON the plane of the arm swing. Now the hand can actually TRAIL the disc, and the disc is left of the thrower in a larger arc (as seen from behind the thrower). In that the disc mves instantaneously away from the center of the thrower.

I would give everyone a homework assignment if you are interested in this subject.

Watch some pros...

Do you notice the disc almost seems jump out the left instantaneously at the release? Once I started looking for this, I could see it. The disc is close to the chest into the hit (in the bent arm position) and it appears to jump about a foot left of the hand and arm arc and then travel on that line straight ahead parallel to the line it should appear to be on if you just track the arm swing arc. This is the pivoting of the disc around the wrist. The disc goes from one side of the hand to the other in an arc. This also explains why many pros do not appear to have a ton of arm speed and yet they kill it. The much needed acceleration is radial around the wrist (using the flex of the wrist) and in a separate arc added to the arm arc.

Pivoting the disc also appears to multiply the arm acceleration, which APPEARS to be additional arm speed (it is hard to stop). I think this appearance of a fast finish to the arm speed is an EFFECT of the proper pivoting of the disc, not a CAUSE for more force to be transferred into the disc.

This the only way for the disc to leave the hit with more speed than the arm speed.

Maximum smash factor.

Look at Geoff Bennet throwing a flick. He does the same thing. The disc is trailing the wrist (it is bent back) and inside the arc of the hand (close) and as he enters the hit the disc is pivoted to the opposite side of the hand and arc of the disc appears to completely outside the arc of the hand (far). It goes from the inside of the hand arc, to the outside almost instantaneously. The arc of the disc going into the final release is HUGE.

I believe this the force vector that Blake is always looking for... but Iwill keep working on it.
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Postby Eric O » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:26 pm

Good description. Especially with the analogies to a free throw and a fastball. I've been throwing with more of what you would call this wrist extension the last month or two, and the disc has been coming out much faster and with a good nose down angle when I hit it right. Definitely longer too. Reading this description I can see why.
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Postby Aaron_D » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:34 pm

I too have had recent gains from a healthy dose of wrist extension. Blake told me the disc was slipping out of my hand and I was wasting a lot of energy and adding a wrist extension would add like 50' of D instantly. He was correct. One of the keys is definitely a loose wrist so you can feel the natural opening of the wrist, but there is an element of consciously opening the wrist. This completely solved my index rip problem. I couldnt get a clean index finger rip to save my life. Everything was coming off my middle AND index at the same time. I was also having a lot of early releases. All of this was solved with a better wrist extension.

I always felt like my hand was getting in the way somehow during the hit. Its a hard feeling to explain, but it felt like my fingers were preventing the disc from launching out of my hand. The wrist extension fixed that. Basically I think that if you find yourself stuck in the 380-400 plateau--look at your wrist extension. Adjusting that made the biggest difference in my distance than anything in quite a while. I feel like I am actually using the energy I am putting into the throw. Before this break through I could throw at 75% and get around 380-400, but if I went up to 90% I was throwing the same D. Now if I go 90% I am approaching 450+ on a good rip. Bam, 50' just like Blake said. That fool is a l w a y s right.

At 400'+ those subtle concepts turn into major gains. I think the mechanics are slight different than BW though. I think the wrist extension is like the last and most important lever gaining range of motion. Think about a mechanical pitching machine. The last lever is like the wrist of a pitcher. Try and throw a baseball without wrist action...insta girl arm. Gah, all this is hard to textualize!
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Postby Aaron_D » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:55 am

Also, I would say that 450 with a wraith into a headwind is more of a D shot than a golf shot. You are probably throwing it at least 20-30' high to ride the whole flight. Now a 450 shot with a wraith in calm conditions is definitely more golf like and probably only needs an apex of 15'. This is why I hate wraiths. in calm conditions you throw the wraith a little too high or 1 extra degree of nose up and it will just climb and stall going like 350-380 tops. A little bit low or a little too nose down and it turns and burns. I like valks or other slower flippy discs for max D because I can throw them upwards of 40' and they will just ride the huge hyzerflip S. Wraiths are so finnicky you have to have the release angle just right and cant concentrate on blasting it. See feldburg in the KCWO vid on dgtv for an example. He gets his wraith or teerex a little nose up on a wide open turnover hole and it just climbs, stalls, and goes OB. Granted if you get it right the wraith is longer on a sweet golf line, but it is less consistent.

Sorry for the drift im pulling an all nighter and am procrastinating! 1 more exam to go and bye bye FSU.
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Postby discnick » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:03 am

I always felt like my hand was getting in the way somehow during the hit. Its a hard feeling to explain, but it felt like my fingers were preventing the disc from launching out of my hand. The wrist extension fixed that. Basically I think that if you find yourself stuck in the 380-400 plateau--look at your wrist extension. Adjusting that made the biggest difference in my distance than anything in quite a while. I feel like I am actually using the energy I am putting into the throw. Before this break through I could throw at 75% and get around 380-400, but if I went up to 90% I was throwing the same D.


This is how i feel. How are you guys going about opening the wrist other than just staying loose. Im pretty sure my wrist is staying fairly loose but I still dont feel like the disc is snapping out with its full energy, whats the next step, to stay loose then consciously tighten and push wrist forward at the hit?
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Postby Aaron_D » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:22 am

Try experimenting with different methods. I found that staying loose was key to finding when my wrist should open, but then I had to consciously open it more with my forearm muscles to really benefit. Start with low power drives in your fairway range and work up from there. There is less conscious opening on shorter drives but there is a ton for max D. Most likey just being aware and focusing on your wrist extension will cause you to do more than you were before. Its not quite as easy as it sounds. It took me a few field sessions to really zero in on what was going on.
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Postby black udder » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:19 am

I know you have a video setup Aaron. Take it out and show us all what you're doing - walk us through it :)

To me this sounds a lot like what Blake has been mentioning as the smaller, timing improvements that players make after they can reach 350' consistently. One of those steps that refines the throw to a greater degree.

I don't think this all by itself will take a player not reaching 350' and give them 400'. I believe you have to be able to feel the hit.

It sounds a lot like the catapult feeling I was mentioning, but I'm not so adept at throwing yet that I can pinpoint it consistently.

This motion does sound like the sidearm motion. I was farting around with throwing sidearm yesterday (I have a horrible sidearm) and started holding the disc out with my arm fully extended. All I would do is just take a half swing and do a wrist extension. I was getting a flat drive with a little turnover of about 150' or so. Before, everything was fluttering and nose up. What B&G are doing sounds like the same thing with the wrist, just on the backhand.
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Postby garublador » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:32 am

This is all excellent information. The descriptions of the disc rolling out of your hand on an arc were particluarly helpful. Thank you guys for posting it. I'm looking forward to hearing about the drills you guys have been using once you feel comforable posting them.

One thing that I'll say is that there is a bunch of stuff that has to go right to even be in the proper position to harness wrist extenstion. You can get to where you can throw 350' but still not have the option of adding wrist extension without some other improvements. The lucky ones are the people that hit 350' with everything right except wrist extension.
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Postby Dale » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:10 am

I have reservations posting on a thread that mostly concerns experienced backhanders (I am not), but I feel compelled to ask if my recent experiences are relevant to this subject of wrist extension.

I believe this "wrist extension" is what I have been doing lately since trying to develop a backhand.

I always had trouble with nose up, and it seemed very little of my power actually went into the disc - it just got dissipated.

I started changing the angle of my wrist so that it was the opposite of "cocked" and this allowed me to AIM the disc nose down, if that makes sense. The palm side of my wrist is turned upward more, instead of perpendicular to the ground. It felt odd at first because I had never thrown this way, but the disc started traveling at least 50-80' farther instantly, with a much better nose angle - not yet nose down but fairly flat almost every time.

I may be wrong, but what I have felt during the pull-through seems like the "tendon bounce" that I've read about, with the wrist getting bent back by the force of the pull-through and then snapping forward at the hit. If my wrist is cocked it loses too much power because my cocked wrist is weak - not in its strongest position to snap back strongly from its force-to-bent position.

It feels as though I now put my wrist in its strongest position to resist the force of the pull-through trying to bend it back. I can also feel a definite wrist snap at the hit. My wrist does not feel "loose," but it does not feel tense either, just steadily held in its position.

By the way, I am not throwing really hard - maybe 60-70% - there's too much to concentrate on without trying to control near-100% power output. I actually throw farther when I throw more smoothly and with less power.

I'm a newbie with backhand. so excuse me if this is all wrong! Feels right to me, although I might be interpreting wrongly what I am doing and perceiving.
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