Par on holes

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Postby trogdor » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:18 pm

GetMuddy350 wrote:There is nothing wrong with easy birdies and tough pars on the course.


Yes!! AMEN!!!

To paraphrase (to my benefit), Make everything a par 3 :wink:
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Postby Blake_T » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:25 pm

i'm curious on why they chose 120' as the magical distance.

imo, par should be the measure of how difficult a course plays, so that there is some meaning that players can use to compare their scores across regions with other players without having to have a player rating.

ratings and wcp/ssa are kind of flawed since they are circular calculations of one another... wcp calculates ratings, ratings calculate wcp.

the birth of par 2's comes from statistical data gathered from large scale tournaments and the average scores of said fields along with the average ratings.

any course with a WCP below 54 (this is most courses) establishes it because there are generally more holes that will play as par 2 (for a 1000 rated player) than will play as par 4.
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Postby GetMuddy350 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:33 am

*WARNING-- WILD STAB IN THE DARK*

I'd say they use 120' due to the fact that people have a chance of running the basket, but if you're on the long side of the 120' odds are your laying up and taking a par. Very similar to the 40' traditional golf putt.

I guess that wasn't so wild.
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Postby Weebl » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:59 am

I could care less if they did what trogdor is suggesting, I have yet to play a course with a tourny par 4 in it but I've played par 3s that stretch 700'. Regardless of the par of the hole, everyone in the same skill caliber will be getting the same score on it.

Weebl wrote:the only difference between calling a 700' hole a par 3 or a par 4 is the boost your ego gets when you get a 4 on it. Trust me, that's all.
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Postby GetMuddy350 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:53 am

everyone in the same skill caliber will be getting the same score on it.


True enough. My own personal opinion on this is have course pars, determined by the director, as a refrence point for beginner players. As your game progresses pro-par (all-3's) should be your goal. Weather or not that 800' snake is a par 3 or a par 5 you card will still add up the same at the end of the round.
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Postby adidadg » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:14 am

Weebl wrote:I could care less if they did what trogdor is suggesting, I have yet to play a course with a tourny par 4 in it but I've played par 3s that stretch 700'. Regardless of the par of the hole, everyone in the same skill caliber will be getting the same score on it.


True, but then whats the point of even calling it a par 3? I think that if you are going to establish a Par for a hole, it might as well be meaningful. Having everything at Par 3 is just as useless as having no Par established at all.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:18 am

thats exactly how i see it. i couldnt care less about par, but if your gonna do it, do it right.
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Postby BHW » Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:57 pm

Yep, seems like a lazy way out to me. Also a good excuse for the ragged unkept course and hole markers. Since nobody can read the sign, it's always a par 3. I think "everything is a 3" is a lazy excuse out of designing and labelling courses. But as has been pointed out....your score stays the same no matter what is determined to be par.

adidadg wrote:
Weebl wrote:I could care less if they did what trogdor is suggesting, I have yet to play a course with a tourny par 4 in it but I've played par 3s that stretch 700'. Regardless of the par of the hole, everyone in the same skill caliber will be getting the same score on it.


True, but then whats the point of even calling it a par 3? I think that if you are going to establish a Par for a hole, it might as well be meaningful. Having everything at Par 3 is just as useless as having no Par established at all.
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:56 pm

we have so many people playing the courses here that teesigns (unless they are solid granite blocks set into the ground flush) last somewhere in the realm of 7-10 days before all of them are gone.

when they are in, it's kind of silly to see what the rec pars are. i remember my 3rd round of disc golf ever, i shot -17 rec par on a 12 hole course... it equated to +1 if playing all as par 3.
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Postby jiwaburst » Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:38 am

The big problem I see is that a bunch of fit guys can simply throw farther than women/kids/the elderly. This difference affects "par" more in DG than it does in BG.

For example, A muni course par three in BG might be 180 yards. Almost everyone who stands at the tee will have the power to drive that hole. In DG a 320 foot hole is simply unreachable for most women.

Calling a simple/open 240 foot hole a par 2 may be accurate for a 1000 rated golfer, but it is an insult to Gramma and Grampa, their grandkids, and the 40 year old woman who is newly picking up the sport.

Disc Golf is wonderful in that one can get much much much better through practice. But a 900 rated player and those above that skill are not really playing the same course (same landing areas, same lines) as a true rec player.

We are using the term "par" which is an amount taken as average or the norm. And a 1000 rated player is not the norm.

And none of this takes into account that many courses have alternate pin placements, thus making codifying things that much more difficult.
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Postby the invisible tree » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:12 pm

I have to say that this whole "every hole is a par 3" nonsense really sticks in my craw. I can cope with the fact that certain people are going to maintain different thoughts about what par is; but I'm not going to accept someone trying to impose that garbage on me. Why is is that all the "par 3" people are the same people that insist on scoring everything with a +1, -1, etc??!?!? I hate that! Go on thinking whatever you want but if you keep my score you better mark it with the number of strokes it took me to hole out and not in relation to your ridiculous idea of par :!:
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Postby jiwaburst » Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:39 pm

when they are in, it's kind of silly to see what the rec pars are. i remember my 3rd round of disc golf ever, i shot -17 rec par on a 12 hole course... it equated to +1 if playing all as par 3.


I don't really understand. You mean there are courses that have special rec pars? Or was there just one course par that was set way too high/easy?
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:12 pm

the closest course to me is set up with blue, yellow and red tees, each have different par. the written par for the tees are for rec players, while tournament players play all as 3 regardless of the tee they use.
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Postby bigs348 » Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:59 pm

Blake_T wrote:i'm curious on why they chose 120' as the magical distance.


Here is a quote from Lowe Bibby on the PDGA site, a big proponent of Close Range Par:

"This method is built on several related assumptions: 1) The “Around the Green” (ATG) factor of 1.67 throws for disc golf should be an essential consideration for establishing par. 2) Par should be determined by the PDGA definition which is the number of shots to reach “close range” plus two to complete the hole. This close range shot corresponds to reaching the front edge of the “green”. With this method of determining par players will need expand their concept of the “green”. 3) A “close range” shot is longer than 10 meters. The maximum length of a close range shot is 0.33 multiplied by the expert drive length. For Gold level players this length works out to 120 ft., so it would be helpful to visualize the “green” as extending to 120 ft. from the basket."
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Postby Weebl » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:03 am

Reasons I can think of for a course with all par 3s.

1. Easy to remember. I don't mind if there are no teesigns, I'm happy to have the course there!

2. Instead of counting my multiples of 3 (counting raw score) you can keep score easier by remembering smaller numbers

3. It's a pro-rated par. Sure a hole on the course may be 700' in a headwind, but there are at least 9 other holes with a very plausable birdie on for the advanced am player to catch up with someone who got a par on the long hole.

If 17 holes of a course are legit par 3s, wouldnt it be wise to call the last hole, which may be an ungodly distance, a par 3 as well to keep the flow the same? I dont want to play 6 courses and get the same damn score on every course due to par inflation/deflation. I want some courses I pillage, some that kick my ass, and some that are super fun average.
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