Gripes about the PDGA

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Postby Fritz » Tue May 06, 2008 8:38 am

Jerrod wrote:
Fritz wrote:IMO it was dumb to get rid of the 2m rule. Trees are part of the hazard on the course and if your disc gets stuck, you need to be punished.

Just my opinion.


I agree since in DG we don't really have the equivalent of a bunker. What was the official reason for removing the rule?


Not sure. I'm pretty sure I'm in the majority to when I say it was dumb to get rid of it. All the tournaments I've been in here in CO, everyone claps and cheers when the TD says the 2M rule is in effect.
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Postby MDR_3000 » Tue May 06, 2008 8:41 am

Jerrod wrote:
Fritz wrote:IMO it was dumb to get rid of the 2m rule. Trees are part of the hazard on the course and if your disc gets stuck, you need to be punished.

Just my opinion.


I agree since in DG we don't really have the equivalent of a bunker. What was the official reason for removing the rule?


because it was a stupid rule.
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Postby rehder » Tue May 06, 2008 8:49 am

Tbh, I DO think we need bunkers in discgolf, but in bunkers you DO NOT get penalty strokes. So saying the the 2m rule is like a bunker is silly.

Most players I have met on the euro scene, afaik think the 2m rule is silly. Usually you get penalized by hitting a tree, by losing distance compared to if you didnt hit the tree. This can often be a difference of stroke. Plus the difference between getting stuck above 2m or not, is not in your control. Basically its a matter if you happen to be lucky to fall out or not. Putting luck in charge of scores is imo not a good thing
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Postby Fritz » Tue May 06, 2008 8:56 am

rehder wrote:Tbh, I DO think we need bunkers in discgolf, but in bunkers you DO NOT get penalty strokes. So saying the the 2m rule is like a bunker is silly.

Most players I have met on the euro scene, afaik think the 2m rule is silly. Usually you get penalized by hitting a tree, by losing distance compared to if you didnt hit the tree. This can often be a difference of stroke. Plus the difference between getting stuck above 2m or not, is not in your control. Basically its a matter if you happen to be lucky to fall out or not. Putting luck in charge of scores is imo not a good thing


Not really, because the bunker makes a hard shot. You can't really have a bunker in disc golf because it wouldn't hurt your chances at a good shot.

Also it is in your control on getting stuck or not in a tree. Throw a better shot. In an extreme case 50mph winds yeah there is the chance it's not your fault, but then again, play smarter and play the low risk shot instead of playing the balls to the wall if you will shot.

I've been stuck in a tree two times in my entire career and that's because I decided to risk the shot and throw a thumber up an over the pines. I could have gone down the gut, but decided if I could hit that hole with a thumber I would end up in a better position. I got stuck and got penalized for it, as I should have been.

Luck has nothing to do with it. Staying out of the trees takes skill and course management. Plan your shots.
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Postby bcsst26 » Tue May 06, 2008 8:58 am

I would say that I would like the rule. An instance is in a tourney it wasn't in effect. A guy throws an upshot and gets it stuck in a tree about 5 meters up. He gets his disc down and throws in for the birdie. If it didn't hit the tree he would have been way past the pin and never hit the birdie.
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Postby Fritz » Tue May 06, 2008 9:00 am

bcsst26 wrote:I would say that I would like the rule. An instance is in a tourney it wasn't in effect. A guy throws an upshot and gets it stuck in a tree about 5 meters up. He gets his disc down and throws in for the birdie. If it didn't hit the tree he would have been way past the pin and never hit the birdie.


Great example! That tree was there as a guardian, not an assistant to get a birdie.

:)
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Postby rehder » Tue May 06, 2008 9:03 am

Not really, because the bunker makes a hard shot. You can't really have a bunker in disc golf because it wouldn't hurt your chances at a good shot.

Also it is in your control on getting stuck or not in a tree. Throw a better shot. In an extreme case 50mph winds yeah there is the chance it's not your fault, but then again, play smarter and play the low risk shot instead of playing the balls to the wall if you will shot.


Trying to throw beneath a tree with lowhanging branches on your knees is just as hard as playing a bunker shot.

And yes if there are few trees on the course, you should try to avoid them. I would think everybody tries to do that. But if you play courses or holes that are very wooded, you have little room to avoid the trees. If you do, good then you got rewarded with an attempt at a bird, if you didnt you probably just lost that chance. No need to further penalize a player. I feel we should try to model that part of discgolf more to golf. Have we found perfect 'bunkers' yet. Nope. Im constantly trying to think of ways to incorparate something like them, that will give players with good troubleshot-skills and advantage over somebody who doesnt, when they land in a bunker. I dont feel that giving penalty strokes, focusses on that aspect.
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Postby SkaBob » Tue May 06, 2008 9:13 am

I'm kinda torn on the 2m rule, but just barely.

In favor of it, if you get stuck going WAY over a shot and get a birdie only because you pulled your disc out of a tree you used as a backstop, that's lame.

Against it, Say you throw a great shot, it's just 4 inches left of where it should've been and you hit a tree midway down the fairway, kick backwards and get stuck in another tree. Should you SERIOUSLY be forced to take a penalty stroke, PLUS the extra stroke to get back towards the pin for that? Bull puckey. Say you throw the same shot, but dumb luck gets your disc to the ground. If you're going to be penalized for dumb luck getting your disc stuck in a tree, it's only FAIR to penalize you for the same shot with your disc getting to the ground. Which means, of course, every time your disc's momentum is stopped in some way by a tree, you should be given a penalty stroke. Would YOU pay to play with that rule in place? Neither would I. It's more fair to not penalize anybody for dumb luck. If they throw OB, that's one thing. That was their fault. A tree stopping momentum from a ricochet (or worse from narrowly missing a gap between branches on a risk/reward shot) is penalized enough by the fact that over 90% of the time the lie you end up with is highly unfavorable compared to what you were going for.

It's not in the spirit of things if you're using it similarly to a bunker - which I think is the right way to look at this. If you land in a bunker in ball golf, you've got a shot to get out of it before you can get to where you can make a decent shot from again. If you get ballsy you can power it out of the bunker and try and help yourself out a little more. I think it's FAR more in the spirit of it that the person be forced to throw from either in whatever nasty tree they find themselves in, below their lie, or better yet from immediately behind it like you'd play casual water. The safe shot from there could well be just out onto the fairway, with the risk shot being going for the pin from there.
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Postby MDR_3000 » Tue May 06, 2008 9:18 am

Fritz wrote:
bcsst26 wrote:I would say that I would like the rule. An instance is in a tourney it wasn't in effect. A guy throws an upshot and gets it stuck in a tree about 5 meters up. He gets his disc down and throws in for the birdie. If it didn't hit the tree he would have been way past the pin and never hit the birdie.


Great example! That tree was there as a guardian, not an assistant to get a birdie.

:)


What's difference between that and an errant drive getting a kick back to the basket?
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Postby some call me...tim? » Tue May 06, 2008 9:39 am

Funny, everyone here claps when the 2m rule is NOT in effect. It is a stupid rule b/c 2 shots could hit the same tree, one could fall out, one could stick, dependent entirely on luck. True, your best bet is to not throw into the tree, but on holes where trees are very much in play, it's not fair to have a "luck factor" figure into the scores. And sometimes even "safe shots" can backfire...I've seen rollers hit roots, jump up and get stuck in a tree. I've never seen anyone intentionally throw into a tree in order to gain an advantage--if there is such a hole where that can be done, then I'd say its fair to enforce the 2m rule there on that particular hole. Most of the time though, if you hit a tree, the flight you wanted has been dramatically shortened, and you're gonna be paying for it anyway.

BTW, bunkers do exist in DG. They're usually scattered rocks or logs, where you're not penalized for landing there, but definitely punished b/c its so difficult to gain proper footing. I've seen some courses where they try to implement a bunker just like in ball golf with a sand trap, which is dumb. Unlike swinging a club, throwing from sand isn't that much harder than from grass.
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Postby ferretdance03 » Tue May 06, 2008 6:17 pm

Fritz wrote:I'm pretty sure I'm in the majority to when I say it was dumb to get rid of it.
not according to your poll...
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Postby Fritz » Wed May 07, 2008 8:02 am

ferretdance03 wrote:
Fritz wrote:I'm pretty sure I'm in the majority to when I say it was dumb to get rid of it.
not according to your poll...


Buncha Pansies!
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Postby Working Stiff » Wed May 07, 2008 12:02 pm

Fritz wrote:Not really, because the bunker makes a hard shot. You can't really have a bunker in disc golf because it wouldn't hurt your chances at a good shot.
Way back when we played an event with bunkers that had a "stand & deliver" rule. You had to set your foot behind the mini and throw. You also had to show balance like you were in the putting circle. The intent was to take away the run-up and make the shot harder like a bunker shot in ball golf without giving a stroke penalty. So it was harder, but if you executed the bunker shot you could recover.

We only did it once because A) everybody screwed it up like they were six years old and couldn't understand simple TD instructions and B) it wasn't nearly worth listening to all the bitching and whining from they guys who didn't want to do it AND the guys who did want to do it who were sick of watching other players cheat at it all day. So much for innovation.
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Postby wdb4th » Wed May 07, 2008 12:30 pm

Still haven't gotten my players pack from the PDGA this year
Throw Quest AT!

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Postby Fritz » Wed May 07, 2008 1:24 pm

Working Stiff wrote:
Fritz wrote:Not really, because the bunker makes a hard shot. You can't really have a bunker in disc golf because it wouldn't hurt your chances at a good shot.
Way back when we played an event with bunkers that had a "stand & deliver" rule. You had to set your foot behind the mini and throw. You also had to show balance like you were in the putting circle. The intent was to take away the run-up and make the shot harder like a bunker shot in ball golf without giving a stroke penalty. So it was harder, but if you executed the bunker shot you could recover.

We only did it once because A) everybody screwed it up like they were six years old and couldn't understand simple TD instructions and B) it wasn't nearly worth listening to all the bitching and whining from they guys who didn't want to do it AND the guys who did want to do it who were sick of watching other players cheat at it all day. So much for innovation.


Now that's a kewl idea for a bunker, Stand and Deliver, Balance inside 30 putt rule. I like it.
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