Gripes about the PDGA

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Postby Fritz » Fri May 09, 2008 7:01 am

mark12b wrote:chuck, can a td also specify OB for only certain types of shots? over on odsa there's a discussion about a questionable rule at a recent tournament -- td specified that if a tee shot went OB without touching the IB ground first, then it was a retee with penalty. if the shot skipped or rolled out, then it was player's choice to retee or take the shot from the spot it went ob. this rule seems to give an advantage to people who can throw rollers. (and, the way it was worded, it ignored all of the IB stuff a disc could hit besides the ground, so it was confusing too.)


No.
You can not specify required shots. I specifically asked the PDGA when I ran my Ice Bowl, because I wanted to require a roller hole and a putter hole etc...

However requiring a retee for not making the inbounds line is perfectly legal because that's also called a mando. Envision it like the TD was making a fake island hole and anything that is not IB is considered water.
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Postby Working Stiff » Fri May 09, 2008 8:31 am

Fritz wrote:
mark12b wrote:chuck, can a td also specify OB for only certain types of shots? over on odsa there's a discussion about a questionable rule at a recent tournament -- td specified that if a tee shot went OB without touching the IB ground first, then it was a retee with penalty. if the shot skipped or rolled out, then it was player's choice to retee or take the shot from the spot it went ob. this rule seems to give an advantage to people who can throw rollers. (and, the way it was worded, it ignored all of the IB stuff a disc could hit besides the ground, so it was confusing too.)


No.
You can not specify required shots. I specifically asked the PDGA when I ran my Ice Bowl, because I wanted to require a roller hole and a putter hole etc...

However requiring a retee for not making the inbounds line is perfectly legal because that's also called a mando. Envision it like the TD was making a fake island hole and anything that is not IB is considered water.
You could give way too much power to a TD if you allowed them to force you to throw certain shots on certain holes. For example, lets say a buddy of a TD is two strokes down to the leader at the start of the last round. The TD knows his buddy has a killer roller, and the leader rarely throws a roller. He could suddenly designate six holes with a ruling like you described to help his buddy win the event. Why open the door to something like that?

The only person who can try to force you to throw a certain shot on a certain hole is the course designer.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Fri May 09, 2008 9:07 am

Working Stiff wrote:The only person who can try to force you to throw a certain shot on a certain hole is the course designer.


And then Brian Schweberger has to come in and screw everything up. :lol:

The specific rule that Mark is referring to is: "All drives that go O.B. in the air without hitting ground are re-teed except where noted." This was handed out on a piece of paper during sign in, and the one hole that was the exception was an island hole where there was a drop zone if you went OB. I know there was a lot of grumbling about the rule and there were several people questioning its legality.
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Postby Working Stiff » Fri May 09, 2008 9:26 am

Tim_the_Enchanter wrote:[The specific rule that Mark is referring to is: "All drives that go O.B. in the air without hitting ground are re-teed except where noted." This was handed out on a piece of paper during sign in, and the one hole that was the exception was an island hole where there was a drop zone if you went OB. I know there was a lot of grumbling about the rule and there were several people questioning its legality.
Did the TD give any sort of rational for the ruling? I'm not sure I understand what he was trying to accomplish.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Fri May 09, 2008 10:04 am

No, I didn't hear any rhyme or reason to it. The only thing I could guess is that he thought there was too much confusion going on in spotting where a disc went OB in the air, which I've never known to be a major issue. If the group agrees a certain estimation is good, mark your lie and play on. I can say there was way more confusion, as well as slower play b/c of this one rule.

The only other reason I could see the TD implementing it was just simply "because he could."
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Postby mark12b » Fri May 09, 2008 10:05 am

Working Stiff wrote:The only person who can try to force you to throw a certain shot on a certain hole is the course designer.


that makes sense. and i should have worded the question differently -- the td wasn't really requiring a certain kind of shot, he was saying that the flight path of the disc has to be considered in order to determine if a retee is required.

basically two players could go ob at the exact same spot and one would be penalized more harshly if his disc hadn't hit the ground ib first. it was a weird rule that contradicted what we all have in writing in our pdga rulebooks.
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Postby Working Stiff » Fri May 09, 2008 10:26 am

mark12b wrote:
Working Stiff wrote:The only person who can try to force you to throw a certain shot on a certain hole is the course designer.


that makes sense. and i should have worded the question differently -- the td wasn't really requiring a certain kind of shot, he was saying that the flight path of the disc has to be considered in order to determine if a retee is required.

basically two players could go ob at the exact same spot and one would be penalized more harshly if his disc hadn't hit the ground ib first. it was a weird rule that contradicted what we all have in writing in our pdga rulebooks.
Yeah, I overstated that. Nobody can force you to take a certain shot, they can just make one shot a riskier proposition than another. If done well, it makes a risk-reward shot which is disc golf at its best. If done poorly it just forces everyone to take the same shot.
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Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri May 09, 2008 11:16 am

The TD cannot specify where your next shot will be played from based on whether the disc touched ground or not before going OB. If there is an OB line such as one paralleling the fairway where it's hard to tell when a disc goes OB, the best way to handle it is to establish a well marked drop zone where everyone must play from if their shot ends up OB off the tee.
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Postby Working Stiff » Fri May 09, 2008 11:28 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The TD cannot specify where your next shot will be played from based on whether the disc touched ground or not before going OB. If there is an OB line such as one paralleling the fairway where it's hard to tell when a disc goes OB, the best way to handle it is to establish a well marked drop zone where everyone must play from if their shot ends up OB off the tee.
I think people get confused because the TD does have a great amount of autonomy in making various decisions about rules and O.B. It is easy not to understand where that line is drawn and not be aware when the TD crossed the line. This is part and parcel of what comes with allowing TD's to put the 2M rule in effect when they choose, call water on O.B. one hole and casual the next, etc. We have already discussed that the TD does have discretion in these rulings, and it is often hard for the rank and file PDGA member to understand how the circumstances are different in the case that was described.
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Postby mark12b » Fri May 09, 2008 3:06 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:The TD cannot specify where your next shot will be played from based on whether the disc touched ground or not before going OB. If there is an OB line such as one paralleling the fairway where it's hard to tell when a disc goes OB, the best way to handle it is to establish a well marked drop zone where everyone must play from if their shot ends up OB off the tee.


perfect, thanks!
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